User talk:Relyk/Daggers without Sin
Needs Expert's Dexterity rangers in there too. [[User:Klumpeet|'Klump']]eet 12:18, 24 April 2008 (EDT) I find your reasoning on some of these kind of flawed. you can't compare builds that are designed for different tasks. IE most people make a ranger build for a cheap pressure build with good armor. you cant compare this to an assassin, because an assassin cant have an equivalent to this. no assassin is going to have the armor of a ranger without sacrifice skills needed to pull off a good constant chain. same thing with a warrior. the one you have is exceptionally bad. Florish does a much better job and doesnt lock down the warriors stance. you seem to be under the impression that daggers are only aloud to be used for spike builds, and that is just an inapproriate concept. you also state that the ele is bad due to low armor and survivablity. this is actually an acceptable in AB incase you didnt know. Also the ele build has a use in organized teams that have 2 or more defensive characters as it gives the ele a better chance then an assassin of getting a kill on its onw. you should stop analyzing things in a vacuum.--Grendal 13:24, 24 April 2008 (EDT) ::That ^^^^ is full of flaws aswell. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 13:27, 24 April 2008 (EDT) Finished them, can't do anything for Paragon or Mesmer, except stick Fragility on a build, but haven't seen anyone try that. Most of the examples are better than the ones seen, so I hope people can suggest how to improve the examples, if someone really wants to play one of those builds.--Relyk 21:57, 29 April 2008 (EDT) :IW mesmer and Find Their Weakness paragon imo. --71.229 22:03, 29 April 2008 (EDT) ::IW...no. Maybe FTW Para.--Relyk 11:42, 5 May 2008 (EDT) :::You forgot paragon--[[User:Crossfirexiv|'CRφss']] 07:06, 21 May 2008 (EDT) i once saw a necro with daggers, his elite was Flesh Golem--19pxThe‎[[User:The Noob Police|'Summer']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'Police']] 15:38, 27 May 2008 (EDT) :The Para w/ WotEP and AR really makes me want to do it in RA for lulz. Zyke 22:11, 15 February 2009 (EST) Oh Dear Build:R/A Exhausting Assault Ranger laughs at this. /FrosTalk\ 20:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :lol, its in Other-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 21:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT) # "Lol dagger ranger". Dagger rangers are mostly bad. That doesn't mean all are bad. # "Sins can do this better". SA sins are fragile, with pretty unstable energy. They don't really do anything much better than this. Energy management is atleast as good if not better here, and the increase in damage is minor between the two professions. This lets you use SA more often, which is better in certain cases, as well as being more durable. Tab's quote. Only reason the Ranger is good is SA and the fact it achieves the same effect. This is not true for any other build (SA neds e-management). Btw, its conceded on the page that Rangers are much more effective than other builds, reason enuf why that build has a Other rating.-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 21:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT) wtb paragon and mesmer prz i rly ned. [[User:Misfate|'Misfate']] 17:07, 14 June 2008 (EDT) :IW anyone? /FrosTalk\ 17:15, 14 June 2008 (EDT) ::Well, no. The only reason to go /A for IW is to abuse double strikes, but seeing you aren't going to hit with your daggers you are going to take 0 (zero) dagger mastery and thus you aren't going to make a lot of double strikes. Brandnew. 08:22, 18 June 2008 (EDT) :::Well Daggers attack pretty dast anyway, plus with /A you get Shadow Arts, which has some nice skills to give you REGENERATION! /FrosTalk\ 08:25, 18 June 2008 (EDT) ::: (EC) even more, after reading through gww's dagger mastery article you will have a 6% chance of double striking, seeing you'll have three dagger mastery at most. 100/6= 16,67. So you'll about land a double strike every 17 hits. 17*1,33 seconds = 22,1 seconds. So you'll get IW to trigger once more every 22,1 seconds, which is (at 14 illusion magic) 38 damage every 22,1 seconds for 1,71 dps. So that wouldn't even be valid for a bad gimmick. and with a sword (the standard IW) you get to take flurry to boost your attack rate. Brandnew. 08:27, 18 June 2008 (EDT) ::::I stopped reading when I saw the math, and I was just suggesting it :D /FrosTalk\ 08:29, 18 June 2008 (EDT) :::::Hmm, the math didn't really matter anyway:P I can't really think of a proper Me/A that uses dagger mastery tbh. Brandnew. 08:32, 18 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::I saw a link on Utube with a fragility mesmer with temple strike and some other dagger attacks, I thought it was funny tbh /FrosTalk\ 08:40, 18 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::Ty ill post that one-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 18:29, 18 June 2008 (EDT) [[User:Misfate|'Misfate']] 15:59, 5 July 2008 (EDT) :<3-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 23:58, 7 July 2008 (EDT) Welllllllllllllllllllllllll lol Glad ran an Ele dagger build (ok granted it was versus an extremely bad guild), but still AMG THE WORLDS FALLING APART! /FrosTalk\ 12:02, 16 June 2008 (EDT) :They were PROBABLY doing that for fun-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 18:29, 18 June 2008 (EDT) ::I know they were, I just though it was hilarios /FrosTalk\ 18:33, 18 June 2008 (EDT) Thank you! ^^ I'd recently created a Rit and started using the Rt/A Spirit Strength setup, to the point I was playing more like a sin than a rit; I was thumbing over the various Rt/A builds looking for an optimum configuration and came across a trashy one that had "hittin' things wiv me daggers" box on it and checked the link. I was going to try argue on your point (Rits do strike for strike deal more damage than a real sin while using spirit's strength), but then thought about it more: they lack IAS, their poor armour and non existant blocking, their energy management skill requirement etc. and more I thought the more i have to agree you were right. So, I've since created a sin, and I'm loving it; plus I realise now sins have a range of versatiltiy on a par with a ranger for filling multiple roles (Scythe, Bow, Interuppt, Farming etc), not to mention their vast farming potential... so, thank you for helping me see the light and stop playing half-arsed sin clones ;) (Sin IGN: Aiko Nightstalker ) --85.62.18.8 18:27, 16 July 2008 (EDT) :Yeah the Rt/A was a problem, because it was good for HB, its good for HB because there is no frontline and the extra damage puts a lot of pressure..-- [[User:Relyk|'R']]'' e l y k'' 05:54, 17 August 2008 (EDT) What exactly is wrong with any/A's with daggers? I'm not sure exactly why any build can be ruled out simply because they are not an assassin primary but they use daggers. Spirit's Strength says that it works well with daggers in the notes lol. Some of the example builds I can understand why they wouldn't work such as the R/A's there but I know of some that work, and work well I might add. please respond I would like to know exactly what is inferior about them. - Land of the 20:38, 11 September 2008 (EDT) :that's not the point. It's that assassins can do it better. Big (<3) PEW!! 20:47, 11 September 2008 (EDT) Warrior's Endurance Bar Needs updating as WE is no longer a stance.--TheHunger 20:49, 11 September 2008 (EDT) :K ill fix :D--''Shadow'' 17:35, 13 September 2008 (EDT) I challenge you For each any/A give a A/any build that does it's job better. I still think W/A bb sins do better after the nerf. Faster adrenal with enraging, no e-management problems if you know how to use different chains, higher armor, armor penetration, strength req met on def set, same spike power...sure sins can counter e-denial through crit strikes, but I think you'll find exceptions to your rules....which you've failed to back up with facts anywhere on this page. No, saying that sins do it better and that these builds are gimmicks are not facts. :sign comments That Twin 11:28, 13 October 2008 (EDT) :Black paint calling the white paint black. Facts are shown on the userpage. This is the discussion/talk page. l2click and l2read. You don't have any facts and supporting evidence anyway. l2argue better.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 11:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT) There are facts shooting down a bunch of shit builds; there is nothing that says "daggers are bad on any other primary and this is why". I can point out a bunch of really bad necro builds...that doesn't mean all necro builds are bad. I gave you seven facts off the top of my head to try to show a clear example. learn to count? then go get a degree I mean c'mon, this user admits to having very little to no high-end pvp experience on the discussion page for his user. Do you all believe everything you're told? ...must be catholic. :What has religion got to do with this? Kindly keep this on-topic. The user in question has reached the consensus with the rest of the community that, yes, daggers are best kept with assassins. I can assure you that assassins play daggers better than other primaries. Just because daggers "aren't bad" with other primaries does not mean they fare better. Suggesting inferior alternatives is, as what is mentioned, inferior. Warriors are worse off than assassins because they can't keep up with e management. Most meta assassin chains can spam their skills repeatedly without auto-attacking, and that gives a very big edge in terms of pressure/spiking/dps over warriors. Try playing the same dagger build on a warrior and on the assassin and you will find in 99% percent of the times the sin kills faster and more efficiently than the warrior. Hence you never raised any facts except maybe warriors have higher armor(which is very unfair, since you could argue that warriors could replace squishies like eles and monks for nuking and healing respectively due to their high armor). Your method to approaching this is flawed. Get your thinking straight and come back again.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 13:23, 14 October 2008 (EDT) The religion comment was a joke about mindlessly accepting things...chill. Daggers are best with crit strikes 90% of the time, but the user that made this page is trying to shoot down any other professions' use of them. I can spike just as often with a warrior as with a sin...and they both spike out the master of damage in 5-6 seconds...the warrior simply gets adrenaline faster due to enraging, has higher armor...and it meets the strength req on its defensive set. Both of your user pages point out that you are inexperienced at high-level pvp(gvg/ha, at least at the time you made them). Perhaps you should try things in the environment they're made to be used before you talk about them, and shoot them down. :Using religion and race in jokes that have such bad taste deserves at least a stern mention. W/A pumps out damage lesser over time, and that matters in HA when you need to constantly DPS your opposing party out. I don't need to hold halls all the time nor be in a top 100 guild to know it is pretty bad if you can't spike/pressure regularly. The whole point of this page is to show that there is no substantial benefit to using daggers via another primary profession. Unless you can prove why any profession can do one better than assassins with daggers, it should be generally accepted that, daggers are 99% meant for assassins. None of you "challengers" have put forth points that really prove that in certain situations daggers are better on other primaries. What I do see is WoT after WoT of "u suk other primaries can use daggers too". Note the big difference between "use" and "use well", as well as "use better". Arguing for the sake of arguing does not prove anything especially without staying on topic.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 14:51, 16 October 2008 (EDT) : To clear another thing up, the arguement isn't that any/A is useless and A/any is always superior, it's specificlly relating to the use of dagger skills on an any/A instead of an A/any. A/any has a huge range of energy management skills available to it right off the bat, so "because class X has better energy management than A" isn't the problem. Primary sins also get access to a range of IAS boosters, so again, taking other classes for their IAS isn't a good reason. Sin's also of course have their runes, so they can literally do more damage with daggers than any other class, so again, "more base damage" isn't the problem, and of course having Critical Strikes opens up access to many dagger skills simply inaccesibly to non Sin's, so "making use of dagger skills the primary can't fully capitalise on" is not the problem. Finally, while sins do have inferior armour to a warrior, why are you using daggers on a tank in the first place? - If you're tanking bring a shield instead and do your job properly... Aiko Nightstalker --85.62.18.8 16:36, 18 December 2008 (EST) ::The argument is A/any is always better than any/A, that just because you can play daggers with another profession doesn't mean you should. If someone can't understand that, then they need to play Guildwars or go play a different game.-- ChristmasRelyk 16:45, 18 December 2008 (EST) :::Yeah, I was clarifying to the OP that the arguement was about dagger skills specificlly, and why none of the other classes have anything to offer to a dagger user than the primary sin does not already have covered (IAS, E-management, criticals, base damage mods), and why "better armour" of a warrior as the OP argued was irrelevant (Sins != Tanks. Tanks + Daggers != Tanks) --85.62.18.8 15:17, 19 December 2008 (EST) x_X Just you wait... a build will be posted on PvX, I'll link it here and YOU try to say why it's worse than ordinary Assasins... Also: Rits don't have trouble with E-management... 1: Energetic was Lee Sa can be brought in... better than autoattacking ;p 2: ever heard of spikes? Lots of damage in a short time, once in a while... spikes can also be limited by ENERGY... And about the build I'll bring out: Dervish/Assasin, spike and DPS, heal, IAS, IMS, energy, AB ;] prepare... [[User:Xaero|'Xaero']] [[User_talk:Xaero|'wallsoftexthere']] 14:31, 16 October 2008 (EDT) :Build:D/A Pious Was Lyssa ::You are so bad, spiking every once in a while is worse than spiking regularly. That's what assassins can do and what most other professions that have poor e management lack-spiking on a regular basis. Plus Rt/A has it's occasional use in HB. FYI heals on an attacker is generally bad, lacks focus, ya?[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 14:55, 16 October 2008 (EDT) ::Spiking once in a while but actually KILLING the target is better than spiking often and failing... now go to my dervie and start making up stuffs (;p) about it [[User:Xaero|'Xaero']] [[User_talk:Xaero|'wallsoftexthere']] 14:59, 16 October 2008 (EDT) :::Assassins have the potential to spike often and succeed often. Just don't fail, like you.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 15:01, 16 October 2008 (EDT) ::::less NPA. And spiking often and not always succeeding will also drain the monks of energy and in the end allow you to score a kill. [[User:Godliest|'God']][[User_talk:Godliest|'box']] 20px 15:03, 16 October 2008 (EDT) ::::(ec)FYI, spikes don't have to succeed all the time. Repeating the spike, whether it succeeds or not, is putting pressure, which is another thing that other /A s lack : putting pressure in between spikes.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 15:04, 16 October 2008 (EDT) Why dont you have reasons for the D/A daggerderv? -- Jebuscontests 20:10, 2 November 2008 (EST) :Too lazy-- 20:16, 2 November 2008 (EST) ::oh i thought it was cause you didnt have one. :D -- Jebuscontests 22:31, 2 November 2008 (EST) Query Can you explain why Dagger-Dervishes are so successful in RA/AB? And I don't want to hear "they're the lowest forms of PvP", which, even though I agree with, does not answer the question.-- [[User:Vanguard|'anguard']] 19:35, 7 November 2008 (EST) :But it does answer the question; its effective because everyone else is so bad. -- Jebuscontests 22:50, 7 November 2008 (EST) ::Doesn't that at least make it somewhat worthy to be saved as a build? The current one is looking at deletion, and accoring to some comments, it's not the first time.-- [[User:Vanguard|'anguard']] 21:16, 8 November 2008 (EST) :::Relying on facing bad people is a very bad way to play guild wars --Frosty 21:53, 8 November 2008 (EST) :::Guardian + patient spirit + kiting > dagger dervishes. Guardian + patient spirit + word of healing + kiting + stance actually decent assassins.[[User:Pika_Fan|'Pika']][[User_talk:Pika_Fan|'Fan']]19x19px 23:10, 8 November 2008 (EST) ::::Energy>Dervs, except zealous vow, but that's why dervs and sins have the same armor and sins dont need elites for energy management-- 02:15, 9 November 2008 (EST) :::::Oddly enough, with Avatar of Lyssa, I don't have energy problems. I don't know what the hell you're all doing wrong...-- [[User:Vanguard|'anguard']] 22:26, 10 November 2008 (EST) ::::::I herd Avvie of Lyssa was only up 50% if the time? I herd if you're actually decently pressuring you WILL run out of energy? Life 22:30, 10 November 2008 (EST) :::::::You dont have energy problems with aol cause you have extra energy and the people in ra dont stop spamming skills-- 23:37, 10 November 2008 (EST) Dervish Section You don't list any reasons why a dervish shouldn't use daggers, which really really needs to be added. Lyssasins fail, and many people need to know why. Silavor 16:33, 23 November 2008 (EST) / Optional is Rush, Rez or Dash. Quite strong, yet fails compared to regular Warriors or Assassins. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 16:48, 23 November 2008 (EST) / Fastcasting ftw. / Like ricky said, brave but pretty much outdone by the sin version. -- Jebuscontests 17:28, 23 November 2008 (EST) WRONG!!! This page fails to address that any/A builds do in fact trump A/any builds in one category: humor. When that Mo/A build used to actually be viable before the SoJ nerf, it was hilariously fun. Worthless...yes, but hit-and-run builds are so much fun. And don't even try to refute the fact that killing somebody with daggs as a monk is the ultimate in embarrassment. Those were goods times in AB... All that being said, for any serious purpose, A/any beats any/A...always :Echo Mending is fun. -- 22:13, 15 February 2009 (EST) ::Echo chain dash is more fun. Zyke 22:16, 15 February 2009 (EST) r/a d/a They r strong now and used alot.Sebv2727 14:23, January 10, 2010 (UTC) :Ye the whole lol daggers not on a sin thing kinda died when Jagged->Fox Fangs was buffed. --Frosty 15:20, January 10, 2010 (UTC) :: --[[User:Ritz1337|'ℜĭŧz']] [[User talk:Ritz1337|''✔]] 15:48, January 10, 2010 (UTC) This page Is pretty much outdated. For Pve Rangers/Dervishes/Warriors and even Paragons already run daggers, for PvP the warrior build backbreaker and the ex-rangerbuild shattering assault where pretty common. :talking about pvp and cbf follow updates--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk''']] talk 23:11, June 27, 2010 (UTC)